Learning experiences, Moment 3 – Perspective from John Loughran
Moment 3a
Michael:
There was a couple of other interesting issues that came out in that initial role play. And one was you suggested that you could tell him about different ways he could manage and help kids come up with the success criteria by themselves. And he sort of said, “Oh, yeah, OK, OK, OK.”
So what interested me about that is that you ploughed on, in effect. You said things to him, and you kept saying things to him, and he kept smiling and being pleasantly compliant as all nice people do. And you ploughed on. So that one of the things that … or one of the things that goes wrong with that is you don’t stop and check for real agreement. And yet you know that you wanted to stop and check. So what is interesting there is, how come you didn’t?
So that I think there’s potential future learning that comes out of that is … how can you cue yourself earlier on to say, “Stop, let’s really check in how Jack’s feeling about this. Or whether I’m just tossing out suggestions at an ever increasing rate and speed that I hope that he’s going to, that’ll hook him in at some stage.”
John:
The difficulty that Michael is drawing attention to here is tied up with Catherine’s need to feel as though she is making progress and having an influence on the situation. This is a natural response, but, as Michael illustrates, it can be counterproductive. It can be very hard to withstand our own needs and feelings in order to create a situation that will enable the other person to engage in a conversation. Being able to recognise our needs is one thing; being able to do something about them is another.
Moment 3b
Catherine:
And I think it was my burning desire to have the conversation over and done with in as pleasantly, pleasantly as possible … But I didn’t do that in the first ... Yeah, so maybe we could try that again, do you think?
Michael:
We could do, but it’s also … what stops you checking? That is the key thing – what is it about you or Jack, a conversation between you, that causes you to keep going when you know – from all the things that we have done previously – stopping and checking is a good thing to do?
Catherine:
I know that it’s a good thing to do. But I also know that he’s just going to fob me off, so it’s almost, it’s either ... I don’t know how he’s going to react if I do actually check … to the point of him saying, you know, “I don’t want anything to do with this.” Or whether it’s just a nice smooth way out of it, so …
Michael:
So by keeping going allows you to get to the end of your conversation – to say all that you had in your head to say to him, and then leave. If you check, he might derail you.
Catherine:
That’s right.
Michael:
So checking is dangerous.
Catherine:
It is dangerous. So there’s a certain amount of nervousness around checking. And the thing about checking is, you don’t know the response. But with Jack, I have a fairly good idea that it’s going to be fobbing off again. And so the nervousness is, “Oh, at some point I’ve actually got to confront this.” And I don’t know if I want to.
Michael:
So that takes you back to that Model I stuff, doesn’t it, of “Let’s keep things pleasant. Let’s not risk either of us being upset.”
Catherine:
That’s right, yeah.
Michael:
So what do you want to do about that? Do you want to … rerun that part of the conversation with Jack, and do some checking?
Catherine:
Yes.
John:
Having the opportunity to rerun part of a conversation is really important in terms of learning how to handle a challenging situation. It allows us to become comfortable with managing our feelings while at the same time practising alternative responses that will be more beneficial.
Allan:
From Jack’s perspective, I think I need more voice. And I think you need to give me that opportunity, even setting it up like: “I want to suggest some things for you to reflect on and see if this does make a difference. But if things don’t sound reasonable for you, it’s really important to, for you to say that – ‘That’s not reasonable. I’m not going to try it, for this reason.’”
John:
This is a very helpful point that illustrates why this type of “coaching” is so valuable. It allows alternative perspectives and feelings to be raised in ways that allow them to be recognised and understood, as opposed to creating a situation that encourages the natural tendency to defend a given position or particular behaviours.
Catherine:
So me setting it up so that you have that chance to say something like that.
Allan:
I think so. Because that deflects the fobbing off. That says, you know … that addresses that issue, doesn’t it?
Catherine:
OK, that’s useful, that’s good.
John:
The point of the exercise is made very clear through this last part of the conversation. Deflecting the “fobbing off” is crucial.
Moment 3c
Catherine:
So, Jack, I’ve got a suggestion around how to involve the students a little bit more around your writing samples. And as I’m explaining it to you, I want to check in to see how you, whether you are understanding it first of all, but also how you feel about giving it a go. And if you think it’s not going to work, that’s when I want to know, ‘cause I want you to guide the conversation basically.
Jack:
OK.
Catherine:
OK?
Jack:
Yep.
Catherine:
You had some fantastic writing samples. You put them all up, and then you talked about them in great depth. And what I’m going to suggest to you is switching that around a little bit so that the kids can look at the samples, they can come up with what’s quality about it, and then maybe come up with some success criteria around that. And I’m just wondering what you think of that whole little process? Or whether you even understand what I’m talking about?
Jack:
Yep, so you’re saying that I do all that work for the kids?
Catherine:
Yeah.
Jack:
And that I could get them to do that … more of that themselves?
Catherine:
Yeah.
Jack:
And why would I want to do that?
Catherine:
Well, the reasoning behind that is that whole notion of having kids being partners in the learning, which eventually leads to them having more ownership of the learning, leading to more independence in the learning. Have you heard of that notion of self-regulated learners? Yeah, and so it’s about shifting the focus from you being the expert all the time to the kids having some input into that. So it’s not just …
Jack:
Would you see it as a problem that the kids … it would take longer? And it would be longer before they got to the writing stage?
Catherine:
And that would be something that you would have to just live with for a little while. But what I suggest you do is give it a go, and see if it’s worth spending the extra time to have the kids actually involved. Because that will be what will make the difference, I suspect, into changing some of your teaching. If you can see a difference in kids’ interactions, or in kids’ quality of writing, or even the research would say that ...
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Allan:
Stop talking and check in with me. Because that’s what I want, I’m wanting you to check in with me there. “So does it sound reasonable?” would be something that would, that gives me ...
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Catherine:
Does that sound reasonable?
Jack:
Yeah, it does. It does actually.
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Allan:
So going out of role here, that was the most engaged I’ve been in that whole conversation.
John:
This discussion illustrates how the ability to “invite” participation makes such a difference to the way in which a situation can unfold. In this case, Catherine’s ability to build on Jack’s strengths and to acknowledge some of the changes that he would need to live with for a while creates a different way of framing the situation. It “invites” Jack to consider his position because he has choices, and that makes a big difference to him in being prepared to try out something new.
Moment 3d
Catherine:
And that’s because I respected you to be able to ...
Allan:
You gave me the opportunity to speak.
John:
A simple but important point – the opportunity to speak really matters.
Catherine:
Yeah, OK.
Michael:
But then she started to go on a bit.
Catherine:
I got into that again.
Allan:
It’s almost like you’re not trusting me to understand. And so I feel like you have to re-convince me again and again. Whereas if it was just, “Is that making, is it making sense to you or do you need …” Yeah, then that would give me that opportunity to say, “Yep, I understand, and I’m actually quite engaged now.”
John:
Again, the opportunity to talk about how one feels in this situation is crucial to understanding the types of responses and behaviours that can accompany these sort of discussions. Re-explaining and re-convincing helped Catherine to feel better about what she was doing, but it was not necessarily helpful for Jack. Hearing Jack’s perspective has been very important for Catherine in understanding why re-explaining and re-convincing can be counterproductive.
Catherine:
And if it comes back to the theory, it’s about respecting you as a learner and as a person that catches on really quickly, and that I don’t have to do the whole barrage. But it’s about checking in all the time. It’s interesting, isn’t it? You think you have to talk more to convince, but in actual fact it’s … it’s gauging, which you do with kids as well, gauging how much support or scaffolding that they need.
Michael:
And how little they need, in fact, is the case here, isn’t it?
Catherine:
That’s right, yes.
John:
Explaining too much can create more problems than it solves; we need to practise recognising and adjusting this behaviour when it is counterproductive.
Michael:
So I think there’s quite profound learning in there for you around that, because it’s, “How do you cue yourself?” – and I don’t know the answers – “How do you cue yourself to stop arguing and start checking much earlier on than you have done?”
Catherine:
Yeah, I think it’s … When you’re working with people that you know are on that learning journey with you and that the conversation flows really, really easily … And I think you’re probably more aware of how you’re going to say something to someone who’s a little bit resistant. So you think you have to talk more, whereas in actual fact you probably don’t. It’s good learning, isn’t it.
John:
This has been a powerful learning experience for Catherine because through the role play she has had the opportunity to reflect on what she has done and what she needs to do to differently. Importantly, the role play has worked because it is “real” – it is not a pretend scenario; it is based on a real experience. Because it is driven by Catherine’s real situation and real needs, she has been able to revisit her words and actions and learn more about what she does, how she does it, and how to make adjustments so that she will be a more effective facilitator.
